<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design in Expelled</title>
	<atom:link href="http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/evolution-vs-intelligent-design-in-expelled/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/evolution-vs-intelligent-design-in-expelled/</link>
	<description>Science news and opinions, culture wars, humor, oddities, personal notes</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 21:32:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: MrTitanium</title>
		<link>http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/evolution-vs-intelligent-design-in-expelled/#comment-1297</link>
		<dc:creator>MrTitanium</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 01:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/?p=2348#comment-1297</guid>
		<description>I tire of that Judge joke. It holds as proper the attitude that government offices are right to cite the Christian Bible as a reference in civic decisions, in spite of the establishment clause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tire of that Judge joke. It holds as proper the attitude that government offices are right to cite the Christian Bible as a reference in civic decisions, in spite of the establishment clause.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Josh Caleb</title>
		<link>http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/evolution-vs-intelligent-design-in-expelled/#comment-1149</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Caleb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 17:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/?p=2348#comment-1149</guid>
		<description>monado,
You said:
&quot;electromagnetic radio waves (material cause) and that’s what we look for&quot;
Actually, no, what we look for is not the waves, but patterns or information contained in the waves (formal cause, not material) which would suggest intelligent causation. This is precisely ID&#039;s argument: examining the material for indications of formal cause or &quot;information&quot; which we know only results from intelligent sources. 

&quot;we don’t know the identity of the villagers but we do know that there were villagers&quot;
Exactly, I&#039;m glad to see you affirm this principle of design inference and agree with ID theorists. See, there is no trick, you understand the argument correctly. Whether you like the implications of the argument is another matter, but that has no bearing on the rigor of the argument itself.

&quot;It was mathematically proven...&quot;
Excuse me, are you just blowing smoke here? I checked the paper you referenced, there are no mathmatical proofs in the paper at all. Here&#039;s an exerpt you were likely refering to:

&quot;...at least thousands of mutations must have taken place. Each new mutant in turn must have derived its survival value from the effect which it produced upon the &quot;reaction system&quot; that had been brought into being by the many previously formed factors in cooperation; thus a complicated machine was gradually built up whose effective working was dependent upon the interlocking action of very numerous elementary parts or factors&quot;

I quote in length because it beautifully illustrates how Darwinists flow so easily from the Darwinian imperitive (&quot;thousands of mutations *must* have taken place...&quot; &quot;...each new mutant *must* have derived its survival value...&quot;) to the evidential indicative (&quot;...thus a complicated machine *was* gradually built up...&quot;). Gosh, if we&#039;re allowed to just assert &quot;it *must* have happened this way (assuming evolution) therefore it did happen this way&quot;. Please tell me you see the circular reasoning in this!? 
Next time read and understand before regurgitating TalkOrigins material...

So back to my initial and only point: there are only two scenarios for the origins of life and its biologically encoded information: it is either 1) intelligently caused or 2) a product of unguided, unintelligent processes. Do you agree with these options or is it a false dichotomy, and if a false dichotomy, please share other options. Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>monado,<br />
You said:<br />
&#8220;electromagnetic radio waves (material cause) and that’s what we look for&#8221;<br />
Actually, no, what we look for is not the waves, but patterns or information contained in the waves (formal cause, not material) which would suggest intelligent causation. This is precisely ID&#8217;s argument: examining the material for indications of formal cause or &#8220;information&#8221; which we know only results from intelligent sources. </p>
<p>&#8220;we don’t know the identity of the villagers but we do know that there were villagers&#8221;<br />
Exactly, I&#8217;m glad to see you affirm this principle of design inference and agree with ID theorists. See, there is no trick, you understand the argument correctly. Whether you like the implications of the argument is another matter, but that has no bearing on the rigor of the argument itself.</p>
<p>&#8220;It was mathematically proven&#8230;&#8221;<br />
Excuse me, are you just blowing smoke here? I checked the paper you referenced, there are no mathmatical proofs in the paper at all. Here&#8217;s an exerpt you were likely refering to:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;at least thousands of mutations must have taken place. Each new mutant in turn must have derived its survival value from the effect which it produced upon the &#8220;reaction system&#8221; that had been brought into being by the many previously formed factors in cooperation; thus a complicated machine was gradually built up whose effective working was dependent upon the interlocking action of very numerous elementary parts or factors&#8221;</p>
<p>I quote in length because it beautifully illustrates how Darwinists flow so easily from the Darwinian imperitive (&#8220;thousands of mutations *must* have taken place&#8230;&#8221; &#8220;&#8230;each new mutant *must* have derived its survival value&#8230;&#8221;) to the evidential indicative (&#8220;&#8230;thus a complicated machine *was* gradually built up&#8230;&#8221;). Gosh, if we&#8217;re allowed to just assert &#8220;it *must* have happened this way (assuming evolution) therefore it did happen this way&#8221;. Please tell me you see the circular reasoning in this!?<br />
Next time read and understand before regurgitating TalkOrigins material&#8230;</p>
<p>So back to my initial and only point: there are only two scenarios for the origins of life and its biologically encoded information: it is either 1) intelligently caused or 2) a product of unguided, unintelligent processes. Do you agree with these options or is it a false dichotomy, and if a false dichotomy, please share other options. Cheers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: monado</title>
		<link>http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/evolution-vs-intelligent-design-in-expelled/#comment-1139</link>
		<dc:creator>monado</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 19:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/?p=2348#comment-1139</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Au  contraire,&lt;/i&gt; Josh, in looking for signals in SETI se hypothesize that intelligent, material beings in another civilization (natural agent) are sending electromagnetic radio waves (material cause) &lt;i&gt;and that&#039;s what we look for&lt;/i&gt;. In
 archaeology we start with the hypothesis that other people dug, scraped, painted, or whatever. If we find a carved antler, we develop a theory that a human being (natural agent) took the antler and applied force to it with stone or bone tools (material cause) and altered its surface. If we find a village with houses delineated by post-holes and corrals surrounding soil soaked in horse urine we don&#039;t know the identity of the villagers but we do know that there &lt;i&gt;were&lt;/i&gt; villagers. 

The Intelligent Design proponents, on the other hand, use some mathematical sleight-of-hand and then throw up their hands in helpless mystification. I&#039;ve mentioned before that the &lt;a href=&quot;http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/rhetorical-tactics-the-dembski/?preview=true&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;mathematical &quot;analysis&quot; used by William Dembski is little more than a trick&lt;/a&gt;. Real mathematicians are underwhelmed by his arguments. It was mathematically proven in 1918 (that is not a typo, 90 years ago) by Muller that evolution will produce the &lt;i&gt;appearance&lt;/i&gt; of irreucible complexity through development and later alteration of complex systems. By contrast, Behe just adds up the odds for each step and assumes they all happen at once. My brother used to prove to pretty girls that, given this and that little fact about them, they were vanishingly unlikely. Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. What are the odds that a presidential hopeful would pick racehorse Eight Belles as her favorite and compare herself to the horse, which would then break down on the race track and have to be destroyed? But it happened. 

And Behe &lt;a href=&quot;http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/13/rhetorical-tactics-the-behe-blunder/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;even gets his science wrong&lt;/a&gt;. He claims that an intraflagellar transport is always necessary for building flagella when his poster child for the irreduciblly complex flagellum, the malaria parasite, &lt;i&gt;doesn&#039;t have one!&lt;/i&gt;

His examples, one by one, are being refuted. Horseshop crabs have one blood-clotting step. Lizards have, I believe, two. Our four-step system is obviously not irreducible. 

But what&#039;s their mechanism? Mathematically it&#039;s unlikely, especially if we assume it all happens it once, which no one (but creationists) ever said it did. An unnatural agent performing an unspecified supernatural act? That&#039;s not science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Au  contraire,</i> Josh, in looking for signals in SETI se hypothesize that intelligent, material beings in another civilization (natural agent) are sending electromagnetic radio waves (material cause) <i>and that&#8217;s what we look for</i>. In<br />
 archaeology we start with the hypothesis that other people dug, scraped, painted, or whatever. If we find a carved antler, we develop a theory that a human being (natural agent) took the antler and applied force to it with stone or bone tools (material cause) and altered its surface. If we find a village with houses delineated by post-holes and corrals surrounding soil soaked in horse urine we don&#8217;t know the identity of the villagers but we do know that there <i>were</i> villagers. </p>
<p>The Intelligent Design proponents, on the other hand, use some mathematical sleight-of-hand and then throw up their hands in helpless mystification. I&#8217;ve mentioned before that the <a href="http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/rhetorical-tactics-the-dembski/?preview=true" rel="nofollow">mathematical &#8220;analysis&#8221; used by William Dembski is little more than a trick</a>. Real mathematicians are underwhelmed by his arguments. It was mathematically proven in 1918 (that is not a typo, 90 years ago) by Muller that evolution will produce the <i>appearance</i> of irreucible complexity through development and later alteration of complex systems. By contrast, Behe just adds up the odds for each step and assumes they all happen at once. My brother used to prove to pretty girls that, given this and that little fact about them, they were vanishingly unlikely. Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. What are the odds that a presidential hopeful would pick racehorse Eight Belles as her favorite and compare herself to the horse, which would then break down on the race track and have to be destroyed? But it happened. </p>
<p>And Behe <a href="http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/13/rhetorical-tactics-the-behe-blunder/" rel="nofollow">even gets his science wrong</a>. He claims that an intraflagellar transport is always necessary for building flagella when his poster child for the irreduciblly complex flagellum, the malaria parasite, <i>doesn&#8217;t have one!</i></p>
<p>His examples, one by one, are being refuted. Horseshop crabs have one blood-clotting step. Lizards have, I believe, two. Our four-step system is obviously not irreducible. </p>
<p>But what&#8217;s their mechanism? Mathematically it&#8217;s unlikely, especially if we assume it all happens it once, which no one (but creationists) ever said it did. An unnatural agent performing an unspecified supernatural act? That&#8217;s not science.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Josh Caleb</title>
		<link>http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/evolution-vs-intelligent-design-in-expelled/#comment-1135</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Caleb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 21:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/?p=2348#comment-1135</guid>
		<description>monado,
Possibly it wasn&#039;t Darwin&#039;s intention to produce a non-God explanation for OoS, but this is tacitly what it has come to be known as in current understanding of the theory. Anyone who is active in the sciences knows this. This attitude that orgin of life and evolution is an unguided process is what ID addresses head on using some very clear molecular evidence and simple logical inferences.

&quot;If there’s an Intelligent Designer, then you have to explain how he/she/it/they evolved or who designed him/her/it/them.&quot;
Your mistaken here on two counts. First, it is not necessary to know the identity of the designer in order to make a proper inference that something is indeed designed (SETI and archaeology prove this). Otherwise you would necessitate an infinite regress of causality for science to proceed which is absurd and thus untennable. Secondly, the intelligence that most ID theorists would posit would be a necessary being by definition and thus it would be a category mistake to ascribe contingent properties (such as &quot;designed&quot; or &quot;evolved&quot;) to it. Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>monado,<br />
Possibly it wasn&#8217;t Darwin&#8217;s intention to produce a non-God explanation for OoS, but this is tacitly what it has come to be known as in current understanding of the theory. Anyone who is active in the sciences knows this. This attitude that orgin of life and evolution is an unguided process is what ID addresses head on using some very clear molecular evidence and simple logical inferences.</p>
<p>&#8220;If there’s an Intelligent Designer, then you have to explain how he/she/it/they evolved or who designed him/her/it/them.&#8221;<br />
Your mistaken here on two counts. First, it is not necessary to know the identity of the designer in order to make a proper inference that something is indeed designed (SETI and archaeology prove this). Otherwise you would necessitate an infinite regress of causality for science to proceed which is absurd and thus untennable. Secondly, the intelligence that most ID theorists would posit would be a necessary being by definition and thus it would be a category mistake to ascribe contingent properties (such as &#8220;designed&#8221; or &#8220;evolved&#8221;) to it. Cheers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: monado</title>
		<link>http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/evolution-vs-intelligent-design-in-expelled/#comment-1120</link>
		<dc:creator>monado</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/?p=2348#comment-1120</guid>
		<description>Nope, you&#039;re confused. You&#039;re setting up a false dichotomy and you don&#039;t know much about Darwin&#039;s life. The young Darwin who set out on the voyage of the &lt;i&gt;Beagle&lt;/i&gt; as its naturalist was, I think we can say, a creationist in the sense that he thought animal and plant distribution was part of God&#039;s divine plan. But observation of changes over time, through geology, and geography were rubbing people&#039;s faces in the fact that new forms of life at any time and place were related to the previous inhabitants. Read &quot;Darwin&#039;s Century&quot; by Loren Eiseley. 

The underlying scientific assumption of the time was Lamarkian: that use of disuse of limbs or organs was inherited by offspring. Darwin had no need to come up with an explanation for change that didn&#039;t involve God. The challenge was to break out of thinkin change would occur only within &quot;kinds.&quot;

If there&#039;s an Intelligent Designer, then you have to explain how he/she/it/they evolved or who designed him/her/it/them. 

Once again, religious beliefs have no place in scientific experiments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope, you&#8217;re confused. You&#8217;re setting up a false dichotomy and you don&#8217;t know much about Darwin&#8217;s life. The young Darwin who set out on the voyage of the <i>Beagle</i> as its naturalist was, I think we can say, a creationist in the sense that he thought animal and plant distribution was part of God&#8217;s divine plan. But observation of changes over time, through geology, and geography were rubbing people&#8217;s faces in the fact that new forms of life at any time and place were related to the previous inhabitants. Read &#8220;Darwin&#8217;s Century&#8221; by Loren Eiseley. </p>
<p>The underlying scientific assumption of the time was Lamarkian: that use of disuse of limbs or organs was inherited by offspring. Darwin had no need to come up with an explanation for change that didn&#8217;t involve God. The challenge was to break out of thinkin change would occur only within &#8220;kinds.&#8221;</p>
<p>If there&#8217;s an Intelligent Designer, then you have to explain how he/she/it/they evolved or who designed him/her/it/them. </p>
<p>Once again, religious beliefs have no place in scientific experiments.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
